Gurpreet's Amrit is a meaningful story that hits the target towards the
end. Convey my congratulations to this budding creative writer. I wish him all
success.
Absolutely correct interpretation according to Gurbani. A well researched
piece of contemporary writing that should dispell any doubts on
the issue of "pilgrimage" in Gurmat. Pilgrimage as generally
understood in other religions has no place in Gurmat and this is amply
stated in Gurbani of Guru Granth Sahib Jee.
from Pritpal Singh Bindra
Place: (Mississauga) Toronto, Canada
Ishwinder,
Excellent work.
Also please accept my thanks for posting Dr. Sodhi and Dr. Mann's article
about Dr. McLeod. I have forwarded it to Dr. McLeod. He never
responds but he may refer to the points in some of his future writings, as
per his habit.
Very well written like all your other writings and very conclusive. I have not read the original article that you are reviewing, but your setting out Guru Sahibs views on Pilgrimages are entirely in accordance with Gurmat.
Congratulations on writing this fabulous article on this concept. It is good. I am glad that you took up this cause to not only correct an essay projecting inconclusive information, but also provided an analysis. I hope that Mr Paine is convinced by your theological and historic explanations, apart from your keen observation of his habit of missing the tuk containing the whole message when quoting Gurbani.
I only wished to add that Sikhs still do participate in pilgrimages and undertake ashnans with a view to wash away their previously committed sins and cure physical conditions. The issue that having washed away their current sins and then conducting their daily business in the unchanged way and coming back again after an interval with the same aim, is not endorsed by the Sikh thought! This is only Brahmincal practice, which still is practicised by Sikhs. Sikhs don't need to take pilgrimage and bathe in special waters. The whole philosophy is to lead a deceit-free life where the need would not arise to do such rituals.
Guru Gobind Singhji's supposedly Himalayan refuge in his previous life is the chief place, followed by several others. People. even devout Gursikhs pertake in such practices where 'supernatural' reverence and relevance is given to anything associated with the word. The spiritual and historical power, nostalgia and resonance of (say) Shri Harmander Sahib/ Shri AnandPur Sahib should not be associated with blindfaith. The onus is on us to implement the correct message.
Regrds
Gurkiran Kaur
Thank you so much for forwarding your very-interesting....
Thank you so much for forwarding your very-interesting response to my exploratory paper. I'm absolutely delighted if I have, in some small way, helped to prompt discussion of these matters.
With best wishes
Crispin
Your article is very well written, Ishwinder, and ....
Your article is very well written, Ishwinder, and brings out the teachings of the Gurus clearly. The title is particularly well chosen. If Sikhs fully accepted their teachings why then are they so attached to Darbar Sahib?
I want to draw S. S. Dhanoa’s attention to a statement in his article: Guru Granth Sahib and Religions of the World.
“It was the Muslim conquest of India, that produced the north Indian Sants and the Muslim Sufis, who tried to work out a common ground for the two traditions.”
In Aad Guru Granth Sahib the words, sant, sadh and bhagat have the same meaning, saint and are used interchangeably. However, in Aad Guru Garnth Sahib, the saints whose bani (compositions) are incorporated are called bhagats and their bani is called bhagat-bani. Had they been known as sants at the time when Guru Arjan Dev compiled the Aad (Adi) Granth, he would have used the word sant for them. Their designation as sants is a later development, probably the “construct” of Western writers.
Sikh writers should use the terminology of Aad Guru Granth Sahib in order to avoid confusion and misinterpretation.
Editor-- The author's response is posted after the feedback.
Very good effort to criticize and challenge Paine's paper. It was very very informative. Good job!
However, I have a question about the following Sentence:
"Paine is correct in asserting that Guru Nanak himself visited both Hindu and Muslim places of pilgrimage. However, the purpose of visiting these places was to learn about the beliefs and practices of adherents of other faiths and later to spread his message. The intention was not to join in a pilgrimage."
In the above, you said, "the purpose of visiting these places was to learn about the beliefs and practices of other faiths ". But Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not need "learn about the beliefs and practices of other faiths". He already knew about everything that was happening around on earth. But by reading your quote above, it looks like Guru Nanak was ignorant of the beliefs and practices of the others that he had to learn them first by going there and then spread his message.
You made a very good effort by pointing out Pain's painful assertions where he did not tranlate the whole shabad in order to serve his purpose to mislead the readers, as you mentions in the following:
"It is interesting to note that while translating the second line, Paine stops after just translating half of the line."
and
"Now let us see the Shabad quoted by Paine. We observe that he translates four lines of the Shabad, then skips two lines and finally stops after translating the line following the pause (rahaao)"
and
"As has been mentioned above, Paine omits translating the line before the pause and hence misses the central theme of the Shabad."
Under Reference:
"8 McLeod, W. H. 1996. The Evolution of the Sikh Community. Oxford University Press. p 8"
Finally, I am surprised by your referece to McLeod's book in this paper. It looks like you give a very high validity, credibility, and importance to McLeod's views on Sikhi. As you have used this book for reference, it would be obvious you must have read this book. This book has 5 essays,119 pages, and first poublished in 1976 by the same publisher. We have this book in our university. On pages 87-88, McLeod wrote:
"And so it would appear that the Sikh Gurus were, beyond all doubt, vigorous and practical denunciators of caste. From this it would seem to follow that continued evidence of caste distinction within the Sikh community must represent flagrant violations of the Gurus? explicit commands. It is at this point that some critics of Sikh claims have introduced a suggestion which to Sikh ears must sound grossly impertinent. According to these critics the most prominent violators of the anti-caste commandments are the Gurus themselves. Nothing arouses a Sikh to greater fury than a censure (direct of implied) of the Gurus and it is presumably for this reason that the suggestion has rarely found its way into print. It is, however, uttered often enough in conversations and ought therefore to be brought into the open for examination."
At the end of the next paragraph, McLeod writes:
"All the Gurus, themselves Khatris, married Khatri wives and this, declare their critics, is the true measure of their sincerity. How can one respect a commandment when its promulgators ignore it?"
NOW, can you present your views on the quotes above? Do you support McLeod's assertions? Please don't think this is irrevalent becuase you have used this book for referece and that is why I am asking you. To me, Mcleod is an English version of Kala Afghana.
bhul chuk di khima....
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
--Jaswant Singh
Author's comment
Dear Jaswant Singh Ji
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
Thanks for your response to my article on Sikh Pilgrimage. Here are my brief remarks on your queries:
Regarding Guru Nanak "learn[ing] about the beliefs and practices of other faiths":
Your point is well taken. However, Guru Nanak became all knowing about what was happening around the world when the word of God was revealed to him. This year is generally accepted as 1499 when Guru Nanak disappeared on the coast of the river Bein. There were 30 years in Guru Nanak's life prior to 1499 and he might have visited pilgirmage centres then to learn about the beliefs and practices of other faiths. Ofcourse his visits after the revelation were for spreading his message.
Prof W.H.McLeod
i. If any title appears under reference in a particular article it does not mean that the author of the article is in agreement with everything written in it. Even Paine's article is mentioned in the references and my whole article is a critique of Paine's work.
ii. Quoting a particular point from McLeod's works does not mean that one is in agreement with everything written by him.
iii. I do not give "a very high validity, credibility, and importance to McLeod's views on Sikhi" because McLeod is not a theologian but a historian. However, amongst Western observers of Sikhism McLeod is an iconic figure and quotes from his books have have credibility in their eyes. Since my article was a critique of a Western work, McLeod's quote no 8 were included.
iv. As far as quote no 9 is concerned, I am contradicting what McLeod is saying and not supporting him
I cannot comment on your quoted portion from McLeod's book because it is only a partial quote and does not get across the meaning which McLeod actually intends in his article.
I consider myself to be neither a supporter of McLeod nor his critic.
v. However, others generally regard me to be his critic.Please see my letters to editor of Sikh Review in January and March 2004 and my article in Abstracts of Sikh Studies Jan-Mar 2004. For my detailed commentary on academic issues raised in McLeod's works please visit the link:
McLeod's case is not comparable to Kala Afghana's because McLeod is neither a Sikh nor a theist.
I hope I have answered your questions satisfactorily.
Thanks for your response to my small piece on Sikh Pilgrimage. Regarding attachment of the Sikhs to Darbar Sahib- I think it is more due to the pivotal role Darbar Sahib has played in Sikh history. Also the beauty and the aura of the place are enough to make one want to go back again and again. You would have probably felt the same way from your own experiences.
Even though many Sikhs are emotionally attached to the place, I do not know of any who think that visiting it is a must for their salvation or is a religious compulsion. Again many Sikhs attribute miraculous powers to the water in the sarovar but I do not think any of them feel that the water will help wash away their sins. But one can never be sure on matters of faith!
With Regards,
Ishwinder
Your intriguing interpretation of Bhagvad Gita has.....
Your intriguing interpretation of Bhagvad Gita has prompted me to ask the following question: If Bhagvad Gita teaches holistic work ethics for the good of all, then how can one justify the unjust caste system?
Even fifty years after the British colonist left why does India still remain one of the poorest nations in the world? The United Nations reports on human development puts India toward the bottom of the list. From my knowledge there has never been a period in the history of the Indian subcontinent when holistic work ethics were used for the betterment of society.
The deceit used by the Pandavs to kill their cousins cannot be admired just like the treatment meted by the five brothers to their common wife who they mortgaged to pay the gambling debt. Was the advice given to the Pandavs was ethical? The writer of Bhagvad Gita does condemn Daryodan for humiliating Dropti by attempting to undress her publicly, but he is silent about the despicable act of mortgaging her to pay for debt.
The article Caste: The Eighth Wonder by Dr. S. L. Virdi in the current edition of SikhSpectrum, shows how religion has been used to discriminate. How does the Bhagvad Gita seek to eliminate the suffering of the lower castes and the untouchables?
Regards
Baldev Singh
I am obliged to Baldev Singh for the.....
-S.S. Dhanoa
from S.S. Dhanoa
Dear sir
I am obliged to Baldev Singh for the correction
suggested. I shall surely keep in mind and clarfy the
sense in which I use the word 'sant'.
Yours Sincerely
Surain Dhanoa
I appreciate the question raised by Sri Baldev Singh.....
-M.P. Bhattathiri, India
from from M.P. Bhattathiri
Dear sir
I appreciate the question raised by Sri Baldev Singh. Lord Krishna never created caste system by birth only by one's action one belongs to the particular section. Bhagavad Gita is a part of the epic Mahabharata, appearing in the middle of the great epic. Many consider Bhagavad Gita as the most important scripture of Hindus. If the entire Upanishads can be considered as cows, then the Bhagavad Gita can be considered as milk. It is the essence of the Vedas.
"Bhagavad Gita consists of 18 chapters and 700 verses. It deals with all type of Yogas, means of self-realization. It is in the form of a very lively conversation between the warrior-prince Arjuna and his friend and charioteer Lord Krishna, at the outset of the great Mahabharata war, in the middle of the battle field. Just before the beginning of the war, Arjuna refused to fight, when he found he had to kill thousands of his own kinsmen to be victorious in the war. Lord Krishna advised him on a very large variety of subjects in a question and answer format. At the end, Arjuna took Lord Krishna's advice and fought and won a very fierce war. Gita has an answer to every problem a man may face in his life. It never commands anyone what to do; Instead it discusses pros and cons of every action and thought. Throughout Gita you will not come across any line starting or ending with Thou Shalt Not. That is the reason why Gita is the darling of millions of
seekers of truth throughout the world.”
Versions of Gita
The very first English translation of Gita was done by Charles Wilkins in 1785, with an introduction by Warren Hastings, the British Governor General of India. One of the most popular translation was done by Sir Edwin Arnold, under the title The Song Celestial. There are many translations of the Gita and one of most descriptive translation on Gita was done by Swami Sri Prapupada of International Krishna consciousness. Almost all saints in India have published their versions of the Bhagavad Gita. Recently the Self Realization Fellowship, California have published an excellent translation of the Bhagavad Gita. Most intellectuals in the world go through Gita at least once in their life time.
The Bhagavad Gita is perhaps the most systematic scriptural statement of the perennial philosophy" in his introduction of the The Song of the God by Swami Prabhavananda and Christopher Isherwood. Gita won the interest and admiration of great intellectuals such as Von Humboldt of Germany and Emerson of America. It has influenced thinkers like Hagel, Schopenhauer and Robert Oppenheimer.
The meaning behind different caste duties. In olden days these were not a problem to the society. Hindu Dharma never insisted on caste system, only certain people introduced this system in between just like in the present politics. Son of politicians usually become politicians and a small section hold all powers.
Holy Gita's message is to do the work according to Dharma. Even all the
sacred books were written by Sri Veda Vyasa who belonged to scheduled
caste. Even Lord Krishna belonged to Ydava family.
"How can the work done by one man be according to dharma and meritorious while the same done by another is contrary to dharma and sinful?" they ask.
In the olden days even unlettered people knew that it was a sin to adopt the vocation and duties of another caste because it was injurious to society.
They worked together during temple festivals and in carrying out public
duties but in matters like food and so on they did not mix together since such mixing, they knew, was harmful to their traditional vocations. The mingling of castes, they realized, would damage the system of vocations, the system that was devised for the good of all society. For thousands of years all castes have lived according to this system, finding happiness and fulfillment in it. If they had not found such happiness and fulfillment, they would have surely rebelled against the system.
-- Bhattathiri
Where does the Bhagavad-gita mention the caste system.....
-M.P. Bhattathiri, India
from M.P. Bhattathiri
Dear sir
Another clarification!
Where does the Bhagavad-gita mention the caste system? Krsna says,
catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah: "I created four
divisions of men according to their quality and work" (Bg. 4.13). The
Bhagavad-gita defines four classes of men in society: a class of
highly intelligent men, a class of administrators, a class of
productive men, and ordinary workers. These divisions are natural.
For instance, you can understand that there are engineers as well as
doctors in society. Do you say they belong to different castes-that
one is in the engineer caste and the other is in the medical caste?
No. If a man has qualified himself in medical school, you accept him
as a doctor; and if another man has a degree in engineering, you
accept him as an engineer.
You will see such divisions everywhere, for
example in software company, there is one R & D (research &
development) dept, people (called research engineer) there gets the
idea regarding a project, then there are departments, called production dept,
where people(called production or software engineer) implements those
ideas, then there is marketing dept, who sells the project, & a dept
called testing dept, where people test the project, called testing
engineer. Without these departments, software industry will not work.
Similarly in order to make the society function properly, there should
be educated people, whose ideas should be implemented by powerful
people or ruling class of people.
Lord Chaitanya, who is the incarnation of Supreme Personality of
Godhead, is described in the encyclopedia as a great saint who
traveled all over India and destroyed the so called caste system;
uniting all people as children of God. Following in the footstep of
Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Srila Prabhupada established severel ISKCON
temples all over the world and devotees there are from all the caste &
religion.
-- Bhattathiri
The reaction of Mr. Bhattathiry to my questions about.....
-Baldev Singh, USA
from Baldev Singh
The reaction of Mr. Bhattathiry to my questions about Bhagvad Gita is typical that of a caste Hindu. The Hindu strategy is well known. If someone raises questions about Hinduism, change the subject or keep mum. On the other hand if a non-Hindu wants to discuss his faith with a Hindu then denigrate their faith by asking all sorts of questions. This is manipulation, deception and hypocrisy.
Bhagvad Gita is not a religious book of uplifting moral values. It teaches perverse morality, where evil is considered good and good is considered evil. The Bhagwan, reincarnation of god, preaches that cheating, telling lies and deception is Dharma (Hindu concept of righteousness) and it is alright to treat women like cattle. The other aspect of Gita is that it preaches violence. It is all right to kill all your kith and kin through treachery.
Is it any wonder why violation of human rights don't mean a thing to caste Hindus, as that is the reward for the karma of previous life. Is it strange that Bhagvad Gita was the favorite scripture of Gandhi, the "apostle" of peace?
I disagree with this article. Bhagavad Gita.....
-G.B. Singh, USA
Below are comments on article
from G.B. Singh
Place: USA
I disagree with this article. Bhagavad Gita (BG) is a document
which is specifically designed to transform a vulnerable person into a
killer. In fact that is exactly what Krishna is doing to Arjuna in BG. BG
is a part of Mahabharata (which is a war document) and as such never
existed as a separate text until 1785. That is why there is no reference
to BG in Guru Granth. During the Sikh Guru's times, BG didn't exist.
Another reply received from my friend may be seen.....
-M.P. Bhattathiri, India
from M.P. Bhattathiri
Dear Sir
Another reply received from my friend may be seen.
--Bhattathiri
Dear Bhattathiri, below is my response to Mr Singh's points. Pls
forward. i would be very interested to see his response.
Thank you.
--Vrn
Namaste Baldev Singh,
The problem with Hinduism has been that many Hindus have neglected
to follow the teachings of the Saints and the Shastras. The Bhagavad
Gita in particular is clear about the Caste system. One's varna is
based on character/guna and action/karma not Birth/Janma or
Caste/Jati.
The solution to the caste problem can easily be solved by an
authentic practice of Hinduism as it has been taught by Krsna, Rama,
Caitanya, Shankaracharya and Vivekananda among others. All these
Avatars, saints and scriptures have the common theme of equality,
compassion and Love for all regardless of status.
So to blame Hinduism for modern social injustices is
like blaming a
Doctor for the irresponsible behavior of the patient.
The Mahabharat is quite clear in regards to the Pandavas guilt. It
was becasue of their mistake regarding Draupadi that they were stripped of all their power and wealth and forced to live in exile. Yudhistira
himself refused to seek out his political rights until he had atoned
for his mistake against Draupadi.
Regarding the unethical tactics used to defeat the Kauravas, in my
personal opinion I believe their are levels of ethics. If I were to
use cheating tactics to entrap an axe murderer, I would be serving
the higher good. Good leaders are willing to bear the personal
burden of a crime if it serves the greater good of society at large.
A victory by the Kauravas would have been disastrous for the
citizens. Ironically it was the issue of Duryodhana's birth right vs
Yudhistira's qualifications to be the emperor that was at the root
of the war. So Krsna and the Pandavas were making a stand for human
rights vs the Kauravas demands to the throne based on the birth
right.
A proper study of Vedic history makes it clear that India has
an excellent record in regards to uplifting the less fortunate.
However one will never discover these facts by reading the works of
Romila Thapar and others dedicated to discrediting Indian
civilization.
Below is a direct quote form the Gita in regards the caste system.
Chapter 4. Transcendental Knowledge
TEXT 13
catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam
Synonyms
catuh-varnyam--the four divisions of human society; maya--by Me;
srstam--created; guna--quality; karma--work; vibhagasah--in terms of
division; tasya--of that; kartaram--the father; api--although; mam--
Me; viddhi--you may know; akartaram--as the non-doer; avyayam--being
unchangeable.
Translation
According to the three modes of material nature and the work
ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created
by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should
know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable.
Purport
The Lord is the creator of everything. Everything is born of Him,
everything is sustained by Him, and everything, after annihilation,
rests in Him. He is therefore the creator of the four divisions of
the social order, beginning with the intelligent class of men,
technically called brahmanas due to their being situated in the mode
of goodness. Next is the administrative class, technically called
the ksatriyas due to their being situated in the mode of passion.
The mercantile men, called the vaisyas, are situated in the mixed
modes of passion and ignorance, and the sudras, or laborer class,
are situated in the ignorant mode of material nature. In spite of
His creating the four divisions of human society, Lord Krsna does
not belong to any of these divisions, because He is not one of the
conditioned souls, a section of whom form human society.
Human
society is similar to any other animal society, but to elevate men
from the animal status, the above-mentioned divisions are created by
the Lord for the systematic development of Krsna consciousness. The
tendency of a particular man toward work is determined by the modes
of material nature which he has acquired. Such symptoms of life,
according to different modes of material nature, are described in
the Eighteenth Chapter of this book. A person in Krsna
consciousness, however, is above even the brahmanas, because a
brahmana by quality is supposed to know about Brahman, the Supreme
Absolute Truth. Most of them approach the impersonal Brahman
manifestation of Lord Krsna, but only a man who transcends the
limited knowledge of a brahmana and reaches the knowledge of the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krsna, becomes a person in
Krsna consciousness--or, in other words, a Vaisnava.
Krsna
consciousness includes knowledge of all different plenary expansions
of Krsna, namely Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha, etc. However, as Krsna is
transcendental to this system of the four divisions of human
society, a person in Krsna consciousness is also transcendental to
all divisions of human society, whether we consider the divisions of
community, nation or species.
I must attempt to educate you about the caste system.....
-M.P. Bhattathiri, India
from M.P. Bhattathiri
M.P. Bhattathiri has forwarded this email to us.
Dear Sri Baldev Singh,
I must attempt to educate you about the caste system.
Let us not blame Bhagvadgeetha for the caste system
and its ills. In Bhvadgeetha, Lord Krishna says: I
created four castes, based on abilities and aptitudes
of people, (not based on birth). This means centuries
ago, caste system originated in India as a system of
division of labor in which the society would be a
happy place, by assigning everyone his/her professions
based on his/her skills and aptitudes, never based on
birth. So the group of people who had a lot of
aptitude for spiritual studies were called brahmins;
the warrior groups who were capable of wielding arms
to protect the society were called Kshatiyas, the
people who were able to perform a lot of other tasks,
such as construction, etc. were called Shudras and the
community which was very talented to invest money,
create wealth .. were called Vaishyas.
So this entire
system had nothing to do with birth, although it
degenerated later as some folks tried to assert their
superiority and the British effectively used the
excuse of caste system to divide people so that they
could perpetuate hatred of one group against another
and perpetrate their rule over our country. Lord
Krishna never preached caste system as some people
understand it today, and never preached hatred.
Second, Mahabharat is a book for discussion. There are
a lot of controversies and the book is designed to
promote a healthy discussion and debate among people
about Politics, Ethics, etc. One common theme that
runs through Mahabhart is, you must fight to eliminate
adharma at any cost. So that is why Krishna tells
Arjuna to shoot an arrow at Karna, although Karna was
trying to get his chariot wheel out of mud. Krishna
does all advice and use his diplomacy to prevent
war but when Duryodhan insists that he would not
budge, Krishna decides to eliminate all the Adharmi
Kauravas. By the way Yudhishthir was stupid and
yielded to gambling temptation by mortgaging his wife
and brothers. No one denies that. But he was a great
scholar, never lied and never took to evil ways to
accomplish materialistic objectives.
If you study the various interpreatations og
Bhagvadgeetha, you will truly enjoy it as a spiritual
treatise, with a universal message.
--Krishna Venkataraman
Please do not beat around the bush. Answer the.....
-Baldev Singh, USA
from Baldev Singh
Dear Mr. Bhattathiry,
Please do not beat around the bush. Answer the questions I put to you. Why don't Hindus practice the teachings of the noble saints you mentioned? Look around in your neighborhood and see what authentic Hinduism has done to Dalits, women and minorities.
Why has the Indian government confiscated the passport of the editor of Dalit voice? Because he would expose to the international community about what is happening to Dalits in the land of noble Hindus. This is my last response to you. One can argue with people with open mind. You do not know that I grew up reading Hindu scriptures. Hindu morality is opposite to what morality is understood by the rest fs the world. You are fooling nobody.
Baldev Singh
I have been keenly following the discussion on.....
-Preet Mohan S Ahluwalia, USA
I have been keenly following the discussion on the caste system. This is what I have understood: Castes are like profession (division of labor). Mr Venkataraman also suggests that “people who had a lot of aptitude for spiritual studies were called Brahmins.”
If we talk about professions then we must agree that a son of an engineer does not automatically become an engineer, just as a son of a doctor does not automatically become a doctor. If we agree on this we must also agree that a son of an engineer may choose a profession different from engineering and a son of a doctor may practice a profession different from medicine. This should imply that every person has the right to choose whichever profession he/she wants to practice.
The question, which never got answered, is why a son of a Brahmin calls himself a Brahmin. I have met Brahmins who are contractors (a job that according to Mr. Venkataraman is meant for a shudra). I have not met a Brahmin who is a contractor and calls himself a shudra. Similarly, why can’t dalits who “have an aptitude for spiritual studies” call themselves Brahmins or better yet become Shankaracharyas and other high-profile priests. Obviously we don’t see this happen. I am not inclined to blame the British for this mess, because the British no longer rule India and yet the system has not changed.
Caste based violence still occurs and some articles that reflect its ugly side can be read at the following links.
Please allow me to respond to the statements in K. P. Singh’s article, Hemkunt: In the Cradle of Valley of Gods.
He says that Guru Gobind Singh meditated in his previous life at the site where Hemkunt shrine is built and Bachittar Natak is the autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh.
Let me first state briefly my understanding of Nanakian philosophy (Gurmat) before commenting on his statements.
On the opening page of Aad Guru Granth Sahib (AGGS) in the first stanza of Japu, Guru Nanak has very clearly described the purpose of human life.
How can one become a sachiara (truthful one) - Godlike (gurmukh)? But, what prevents one from becoming a sachiara? It is ignorance and falsehood, which prevents one from seeing the Truth. How can one get rid off ignorance and falsehood? “By understanding God’s hukam (Divine Law) and living in harmony with it,” proclaims Nanak. What is needed to understand hukam? The answer is knowledge based on Truth.
AGGS urges again and again that faith based on ignorance (blind faith) does not make one a sachiara. Blind faith does not lead to God (Truth) realization. Blind faith does not make one a jiwan mukta (liberated one). Nankian philosophy is for the rational and enlightened mind. “It takes discerning intellect (bibek budh) to understand Nankian philosophy, AGGS, p 285.” “One who is endowed with discerning intellect is indeed a wealthy person, AGGS, p 1150.” “Use wisdom in the worship of God and earn respect by exercising wisdom. Learn by intelligent reading and practice charity using commonsense, AGGS, p 1245.”
Nankian philosophy does not believe in past or future life. It rejects the concepts of karma and transmigration and hell and heaven. I have dealt with these issues in part II of my article “Why I Do Not Agree” posted in the current issue of Sikh Spectrum.
The type of meditation (tapasia) the writer of Bachittar Natak was involved in his past life on the slopes of Himalayas is rejected in AGGS, p 4, 265, 324, 424). Nanakian philosophy is a whole-life religion. One can be one with God while enjoying worldly pleasures, AGGS, p 522. The Gurus were advocates of active and creative life. We are born to make positive contribution to God’s creation. It is the householder who sustains human society. That is why the Gurus emphasized householder life. They were themselves householders and they praised householder life through their compositions enshrined in the AGGS. They rejected asceticism and denounced ascetics. “I do not believe in the trickery of Tantra and mantra to win God’s affection, I imbibe Him in my heart. Meditation on Naam is the collyrium that pleases Him. The one who understands the Everlasting One through Guru’s teachings has this insight, AGGS, p 766. Never bow at the feet of the one who claims to be a great spiritual teacher, but goes begging for alms, AGGS, M, 1, p 1245.” On the other hand, “One who works hard to make an honest living and practices charity finds the path to God, AGGS, p 1245.”
Those who believe that Bachittar Natak is Guru Gobind Singh’s autobiography should think for a moment why the other Gurus did not write their autobiographies? If they ponder over this question, they might learn something about Nanakian philosophy!
Guru Nanak’s successors, who composed bani (sacred hymns), recorded it under Guru Nanak’s name to emphasize the unity of thought. In other words, they expressed Guru Nanak’s thoughts in their own words. Why would Guru Gobind Singh break this tradition and record his bani under his name?
It was Guru Gobind Singh who prepared the Damdami Bir by incorporating the bani of his father, Guru Teg Bahadur in the Adi Granth. Why didn’t he incorporate his own bani? Guru Arjan Dev who compiled the Adi Granth did incorporate his bani in the Adi Granth. The current Sikh scripture, Aad Guru Granth Sahib is a copy of Damdami Bir.
Bachittar Natak is a part of Dasam Granth. Vast majority of the Sikhs has not even seen Dasam Granth what to speak of reading or understanding it. Many learned Sikhs who have studied Dasam Granth have concluded that only a very small portion of this voluminous book may be the work of Guru Gobind Singh, as the rest of it contradicts the teachings of AGGS.
Gurbakhash Singh Kala Afghana in “Bachittar Natak Gurbani Di Kasvatti Te” and Professor Harinder Singh Mehboob in “Sehje Rachio Khalsa” have demonstrated without any shadow of doubt on the basis of AGGS and sound reasoning that Guru Gibind Singh can not be the author of Bachittar Natak.
I myself studied Bachittar Natak for the first time in 2001 when I wrote a review of Kala Afghana’s works with emphasis on “Bachittar Natak Gurbani Di Kasvatti Te.” Bachittar Natak makes mockery of Guru Gobind Singh’s personality and repudiates the core of Nanakian philosophy. And I found some its contents insulting to common sense.
Finally, for the sake of argument let us suppose that Guru Gobind Singh authored the entire Dasam Granth as its proponents, claim. Guru Gobind Singh must have some objective in mind to write it, as it must have taken lot of his time and energy to complete this large volume. What did he do with it? What did he want the Sikhs to do with it? Did he leave any instructions to the Sikhs for what to do with it after his death?
On the other hand we do know that he invested spiritual Guruship on the teachings of AGGS and he issued an edict to the Sikhs to accept AGGS as the eternal Guru.
Now think for a moment! Does it make any sense that Guru Gobind Singh first wrote Dasam Granth to repudiate the teachings of AGGS and then before his death he issued an edict to the Sikhs to accept AGGS as the eternal Guru, but left no instructions for what to do with Dasam Granth.
A Sikh who disobeys Guru’s edict is a bemukh – the one who has turned his back to the Guru. There is a warning to such a person in Aad Guru Granth Sahib.
“Those who slander their Guru cry in pain. They never find contentment and always complain of deprivation. No body trusts them and they always suffer from mental anguish, AGGS, p 308.”
On the other hand a Sikh imbibes Guru’s teachings and lives by them.
I respect Dasam Granth as literature but not as Sikh literature. Any literature, which is in conflict with AGGS, does not matter who wrote it, is not Sikh literature.
The Hemkunt shrine was built by ignorant and gullible Sikhs led by unscrupulous people, who were no different than Arur Singh, the manager of Darbar Sahib (Harimandar Sahib), who honored General Dyer with a Siropa after he carried out the massacre of Indians, mostly Sikhs at Jallianwala Bagh on April 13, 1919.
The article The Way Things Are by Sr. Baldev Singh is informative and
thoughtful. I do agree that journalists and businessmen differ in many
ways, but both should have some common ethics to balance their zeal
for great coverage with ethical considerations in light of recent human
tragedy and the ongoing military campaign. Both should show humanism
in their actions otherwise it will not be long standing.
Please include this quote on your website. These are.....
-M.P. Bhattathiry, India
from M.P. Bhattathiry
Place: India
Please include this quote on your website. These are the words of Dr. Manmohan Singh who is now the Scholar Prime Minister of India for which all Indians are proudful.
M.P.Bhattathiry
"My vision of free India is of a country free from the fear of war, want and exploitation, and where mass poverty, ignorance and disease which afflict millions of our people today will be a thing of the past.
Freedom from the fear of war means that, while not neglecting our national security, we must collaborate actively with likeminded nations to promote the culture of peace and world disarmament.
"Freedom from want and exploitation requires a strong commitment to sustainable and equitable social and economic development, paying particular attention to the protection of our environment and the uplift of marginalized communities, especially women and children.
"To achieve our objectives, India must firmly reject the politics of exclusion, a politics which seeks to exploit religious and caste difference for narrow partisan ends. We must never allow the type of carnage recently witnessed in Gujarat to reoccur ever again.
My idea of free India is best summed up in the famous poem of Rabindra Nath Tagore:
"Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high;
Where knowledge is free;
Where the world has not been broken up into fragments by narrow domestic walls;
Where words come out from the depth of truth;
Where tireless striving stretches its arms towards perfection;
Where the clear stream of reason has not lost its way into the dreary desert sand of dead habit;
Where the mind is led forward by thee into ever widening thought and action-
Into that heaven of freedom, my Father, let my country awake."
I believe your article on Hemkunt Sahib is outstanding......
I believe your article on Hemkunt Sahib is outstanding. Thank you for the excellent description of Gobind Ghat
itinerary. No body could have done any better.
There is one question which got my curiosity. Are you saying that this
happened during Guru Gobind Singh's "previous life" and not during the
current
life which we have been taught all along. I, for one, really don't
believe
in the reincarnation theory. I think it is a pure imagination of
Hindus, just like saying that Ravan had eight heads.
Balwant Ahluwalia
In recent years there has been serious debate......
In recent years there has been serious debate about the
authorship of the various compositions enshrined in Dasam Granth. Bachittar
Natak, an autobiographical account, until recently attributed to Guru Gobind
Singh, reveals the beauty and association of the Guru with Hemkunt. In my
article, I am neither advocating the pilgrimage, nor I have the scholarship
or wisdom to dismiss the account, nor I am in a position to offer any proof
of the true authorship of the composition. I simply offered my reflections
of a place of awesome beauty. "Nature is the resting place and crown of the
Creator." I felt the journey offered a lot of time to reflect on matters of
spirit and our total insignificance in the unfathomable Creation.
Furthermore, I do believe that with all-knowing Satguru, Nasuro Mansoor, all
is possible. He alone knows his mystery and magnificence. We mortals could
not fathom his Greatness or define his Truth in our terms.
All I know in my heart is that the Great Satguru is everywhere. His Light
and Spirit is in every place we look or imagine. In the article I did not
advocate that a person should or should not visit Hemkunt or other places of
Sikh history and landmark events. For me, many of our sacred shrines and
sites are hallowed grounds. They must be visited to know our faith journey,
renew our commitment, and resurrect our spirit to the great ideals and
traditions of our faith. Each person can decide for himself according to his
understanding, interpretation and guidance from the scriptures, or other
personal and temporal concerns.
The Jewish people believe that their survival as a faith community depends
on keeping their history and experiences alive. May be in our Ardas we are
asking for similar blessings: "Bungay Jugo Jug Atal" and "Darshan Deedar and
Seva Sambhaal" of our sacred Gurudwaras and preserving the sanctity of out
Takhats. I need to experience the places, witness the sacred relics of my
Gurus, walk that journey, study the rich artistic and architectural
inspirations, engage in a "pilgrimage of spirit". It helps my understanding
and provides me a sense of the Sikh history, spirit, and journey of my
faith.
Wiser and enlightened scholars are teaching us about the concepts of
previous lifetimes, incarnations, and transmigration and how the Sikh
doctrine differs or embraces any of these concepts. I am not qualified to
offer a correct interpretation of those matters.
You may wish to read some illuminating feedback to my articles and about
pilgrimage on SikhSpectrum.com. I am personally very grateful for the
thoughtful information and comments offered to my article.
With Prayers and blessings,
KP Singh
Indianapolis, Indiana, USA
If you sent a copy of this article to Mr. Paine, did......
By clicking on www.SikhSpectrum.com, I read your article on Sikh pilgrimage.
If you sent a copy of this article to Mr. Paine, did he
respond and what was his reaction?
You have already a given suitable reply, but if there is any further
discussion please also take note of
Gurmatt Maartand by Bhai Kahn Singh jee: Under Isnan - GGS Pages are
mentioned, 16, 139, 472, 558, 565,
598, 611, 637, 656, 1329 and under Tirath - pages of GGS are 4, 39, 61, 116,
265, 322, 326, 336, 484, 491,
687, 753, 828, 890, 973, 986, 1116, 1137, 1195, 1279, 1367, 1375 which means
such rituals are meaningless.
But author Bhai Gurbakhsh Singh jee of Canada has explained this brahminical
doctrine in detail in his
book Bipran ki Reet Toan Sach daa Marg Vol. 3 at pages 96 to 251. List of
59 Shabds are also given
including GGS - pages 25, 146, 906, 1190, 1191, 1342, 1291, 1329, 1411,
1022, 1348.
In the light of his writings, the so-called jathedaars, psuedo babas,
derawalas/taksaals/jathaas have become
angry. While performing Kaar Seva with golden spades and silver bowls, the "Head",
G.S. Tohra, has already gone to sachkhand
and the tail will follow soon.
Most Sikhs who perform such rituals as sangrands, massya and
yatras are guilty and as such we should
not blame Paine or McLeod because Sikhs themselves don't follow Gurbaani and
Gurmatt, but when others point this out we get upset!
Wish you all the best, and keep up the high spirit in the service of Guru
Khalsa Panth.
Gurmit Singh
K. P. Singh in his response is reluctant to support......
-Baldev Singh
from Baldev Singh
Location: USA
Dear Editor,
K. P. Singh in his response is reluctant to support his statements: Bachittar Natak is the autobiography of Guru Gobind Singh and Hemkunt is the place where Guru Gobind Singh meditated in his previous life. However, to support the view on Hemkunt, he feels that the reasons for its presence are: the beauty of the place, Satguru is everywhere and a Sikh’s yearning to visit Gurdwaras repeated in daily Ardas.
As for the beauty of Hemkunt area is concerned, I would suggest brother K. P. Singh to read Guru Nanak’s composition “gagan mein thal…” describing the beauty of the cosmos. I agree with him that Satguru (God) is everywhere - in a snowflake, grain of sand and deep of the ocean. Wherever there is nucleus of Sikh population, Sikhs have built a Gurdwara. However, in the area of Hemkunt, there was no Sikh population and this shrine is built on the basis of a story that repudiates the core of the teachings of Aad Guru Granth Sahib. Why should Sikhs yearn to visit such a place and promote it? As far as the reference to Ardas is concerned, there the yearning is for a glimpse of historical Gurdwaras. Ardas is a capsule of Sikh ethics and authentic history.
Baldev Singh
I read your article, but I am very disappointed in saying......
I read your article, but I am very disappointed in saying that
whatever you have written here is your own perception of this issue. Your article is very biased. I am a Punjabi Brahmin and I have the utmost faith for Sikhs and some of my family members are Sikhs. Why are you even trying to discuss this issue? This is a very absurd and biased and racist issue.
You as a senior citizen of the country should teach the message of equality and not of racism. You should not be shameful to admit that Sikhs originated from Punjabi Hindus. It is a fact and please don’t run away from it. What is this issue about dark and light skin? It is just the different level of melanin present in one's body that makes him dark or white and for the matter of fact all Indians, Pakistanis and even Arabs would be considered dark in front of Europeans so please don’t be racist about skin color. No matter what skin color you are, the blood inside everyone is same and all of us are created by the same god.
We only give them different names. I call it Ram and you call it Guru Nanak. So if you insult Ram then you are insulting Guru Nanak. In the end the only fact is whether we are brown, black or white, Hindu, Sikh or Muslim, we are only Punjabis and Indians. No other domains of distinction.
Would love to get you reply from you.
sat sri akal..jai shri ram
Editor-- Please be factual and focused in your response to our writers. If you allege that an author is biased or racist you are also requested to give reasons why you have reached that conclusion. We pass the feedback to the authors for their comments and it would make the communication more meaningful if the authors are given specific reasons for the disagreement.
While it is true that the ancestors of Sikhs were predominantly Hindus one must realize that people who converted to Sikhism did after rejecting the faith of their ancestors. One might like to discuss the reasons for that rejection, but a person who has converted to a different faith expects to be recognized as a member of that particular faith. Since it is their personal choice to reject one religion in favor of another, etiquette would demand that we recognize their personal decisions. We welcome a well-written detailed article from our readers why Sikhs are Hindus and we will publish it on our website. Please be factual and reference your work.
Baldev Singh has highlighted the importance people of Indian origin put on the color of the skin and how in India, and most of South Asia, a large section of the population prefers light skinned people to dark-skinned people. Indian matrimonial classifieds provide ample proof to this fascination for lighter skin among many Indians. Nowhere has Baldev Singh suggested that he approves of this. In fact, he has spoken against it in the article.
If you feel that Baldev Singh has insulted someone please do write clearly so that Dr. Singh can respond to your specific allegations. Again, we would like to keep the discussion focused and meaningful.
Had you read the articles carefully and with an......
-Baldev Singh, USA
Dear Mr. Prabhakar,
Had you read the articles carefully and with an open mind, you would have found that I wrote these articles in response to an article by Niranjan Shah that claims Sikhs as Hindus. Besides, he misinformed the readers about the meaning of the word Hindu.
In my article I have made it abundantly clear that a vast majority of the Sikhs are descendents of Hindus just as are Indian Muslims. I have pointed out on the basis of Aad Guru Granth Sahib and Sikh history that Sikhism is not a sect of Hinduism and Sikhs are not Hindus. Does it make a Sikh racist if he or she asserts that he or she is not a Hindu? Where did you get this definition of racism? Could you point out any erroneous statement in my articles? In a rational discussion one should use logic and to-the-point arguments.
I agree with you that it is melanin, which is responsible for skin color differentiation. But it is the skin color, which is the basis of the caste system. The Caucasian tribes from central Asia – so-called Aryans-- who conquered the dark-complexioned Dravidians of the Indus Valley, imposed the varna (color) ashram (status) dharma (religion) on their victims to humiliate and degrade them. With the passage of time, as more racial groups emerged, varna ashrma dharma evolved into the caste system based on occupation. Vast majority of the Indians are ignorant of this fact.
The word Hindu is not found in any Hindu scripture. People who lived on the western side of Hindu Kush range gave this derogatory label to the inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent. There is no Hindu scripture that does not uphold the varna ashrma dharma (caste system), thus making it the essence of Hinduism.
It makes no difference whether some or all your relatives are Sikhs -- Sikhism is a unique religion. Sikh Gurus rejected all the essentials of Hinduism, and the moral authority of Hindu scriptures.
The difference between day and night is sunlight, but one has to open the eyes to see it. People who are unwilling to face the truth often indulge in false accusations or change the subject.
This article is quite awesome. I am writing an essay on
Barbie girls and all information I require is in the article, which
gives mean an idea on how to do my essay. So thanks for putting it on your website.
Congratulation on building a great platform where......
-Sukhvir Singh, USA
from Sukhvir Singh
Location: USA
Dear Editor
Congratulation on building a great platform where the light of truth can be shed everywhere from mountains to the valleys. I hope this platform will become more open, strong and thirsty and everyone will drink from this well.
-Sukhvir Singh
First of all I would like to apologies if I hurt.....
First of all I would like to apologies if I hurt your feelings. You admit that after a through study of your Adi Granth that you came to the conclusion that Guru Nanak copied various religious scriptures and interpreted it in his own style, so how can you say that your religion is true then, from God?
Because you claim Guru Nanak to be a messenger of God according to his own claim, well a person's claim is insufficient to say that he is a prophet, because I can easily say that after a thorough understanding of reading various religious scriptures, naturally somebody gets his own ideas about God, and then he gets an alleged vision from God
and says that he is a prophet, and what he preaches is that a mixture of Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism, so naturally one would get the idea that there is no logical way in which he was a prophet.
Further to your answers about that there is scientific facts mentioned in the Adi Granth what you have to think is that all those facts were mentioned in the Quran almost nine hundred years before Guru Nanak, also the Quran has a lot more facts than the Adi Grath has about modern science, further the Adi Granth has many errors
like for example the Adi Granth states that there are 7.8 million species modern science has now told us that there are more than 100 million species in the world.
Another scientific error in the Adi Granth is that the moon has its own light, as the Adi Granth mentions the sun and the moon are lamps, so that’s against established scientific data that we have, would you like to know what the Quran says, 'Blessed is he who placed in the firmament a lamp and a moon having reflected light'. So I will leave it up to you to determine the truth.
Thank you very much for your time.
--Muhammed Bilal Zidani
Editors Note
Mr. Zidani,
Nowhere does Sirdar Kapur Singh suggest in his article that Guru Nanak copied various religious scriptures and interpreted them in his own way. Kapur Singh acknowledges that Guru Nanak was thoroughly conversant with other religious texts including the Qu’ran. Guru Nanak used examples and terminology from other religious texts – namely Hindu and Muslim – to explain his revelation to the general masses who were predominantly Hindu and Muslim. Kapur Singh has stressed, as many Sikhs before and after him, the uniqueness of the Adi Granth and the differences in the meaning of words and examples explained in the Adi Granth from their usage in the Hindu scriptures and the Qu’ran.
Consider the example of 8.4 (not 7.8) million species. The Hindu tradition believes that 8.4 million species are manifested from the five basic elements. Guru Nanak uses this example to emphasize his message of the special place for human birth and the main thrust of the Sikh faith, which is to become a god-centered person and thereby create heaven on earth. Guru Arjan reinforces this process of human evolution:
For several births you were just a worm
For several births, an elephant, a fish, a deer
For several births, a bird, a serpent
For several births served as a bull, horse
This is the moment of union with God-
Now that you have, after ages, evolved into the human for
Many times destroyed in the womb
For countless times subjected to vegetative growth
Passing through myriads of species
Through communion with the Holy you arose into a man
Serve now the Lord, meditating on the Guru's word. (Guru Arjun)
In Var8 (Pauri 6) Bhai Gurdas emphasizes that “out of” the 8.4 million births (species; a common belief among the masses) the human birth is most exalted. In the same Var he goes on to say that Hindus worship the Vedas and Muslims worship katebas (Qu’ran) but there is only one Creator although two different ways (Muslim and Hindu) have been devised to reach the Creator. Guru Nanak fundamentally rejects both the Muslim and Hindu claim that the Creator (read salvation) is possible through their path way only.
If there is one Creator then how could different religions claim to be the only path? This is the thrust of Guru Nanak's message. Any such claim makes a religion exclusive to the point of intolerance toward others as we have witnessed throughout human history. Previously Zaffar from Chandigarh had sent us his feedback on this article “reminding us” that Guru Nanak is not a Prophet. We would like to reiterate our views on this question.
A common definition of Prophet is a person who is the recipient of divine revelation. Now, a brief account on how Islam and Sikhism look at the role and scope of Prophethood.
Muslims believe:
"O people ! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Apostle of God and the last in the line of Prophets." (Surah Al Ahzab: 40)
As you must be aware the word Khatam-al-Nabiyyin means Finality of Prophethood. In fact, prophet Mohammad is said to have proclaimed his status as the final prophet of mankind.
"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Manaqib).
Then there are important events like angel Gabriel who informed Prophet Mohammad of his choice as the chosen one, "..from all the sides whereof he heard the voice crying out loud, Mohammad thou art the apostle of God, the most high and I am the angel Gabriel."
Similarly Christians also believe that resurrection of Jesus confirms his status as the chosen Son of God (1 Corinthians, Chapter 15). The Church also claimed itself as the only source of salvation. In the words of Saint Cyprian's: Nulla salus extra ecclesiam – outside the church there is no salvation.
Muslims divide the world into Umma (believers) who live in Dar al-Islam (Land of Islam) and Harbi (non-believers) living in Dar al-Harb (Land of the unbeliever, lit. warfare). Perhaps this division is a consequence of the finality of revelation of God to prophet Mohammad as believed by devout Muslims.
Unfortunately, over the centuries, the claim to finality and the only “true revelation” has been the source of religious persecution and fanaticism. Expressing his frustration, Friedrich Nietzsche wrote in Beyond Good and Evil: "Love of one [self] is a piece of barbarism: for it is practiced at the expense of all others. Love of God is likewise."
Sikhism does not believe in a final revelation. Sikh faith insists on One Creator as a source of all creation and that the attributes and wonders of this Creator are infinite (limitless). The concept of a final revelation (i.e. Infinite made finite) does not find acceptance. Sikhs accept the presence of all Prophets, past and future. Says Guru Nanak,
Numerous are the seasons emanating from the sun,
Numerous are the guises in which the Creator appears [i.e. makes Its attributes known through divine people of all religions].
Accordingly, the Sikh definition of prophethood encourages religious pluralism by rejecting the doctrine of finality of Divine revelation. Sikh Gurus never considered themselves prophets, only “lowest of the low.” To them all divine people are elated souls.
Truth is the panacea for all ills,
It washes off all sins;
Nanak bows to those that have truth within them. (Guru Nanak, Rag Asa)
There is no emphasis on miracles and neither are they used to further any claim to prophethood. Moreover, Sikh philosophy argues that humans don't need any intermediary between humans and the Creator. Consequently there is no priesthood in the religion. Hence no need for clerics or imams as in Islam.
Man can and should experience the divine through good actions and godly living: "Goodness, righteousness, virtue and the giving up of vice are the ways to realize the essence of the Creator" [SGGS: p. 418]. "Destroy evil and you become a perfect man" [SGGS: p. 404].
You may also find it interesting that Sikh Gurus bestowed upon the Khalsa (an elevated/perfect human) the status of the Guru. ”The Khalsa is my determinate form; I am immanent in the Khalsa.” (Guru Gobind Singh)
In the company of these God-oriented people, who live in the service of humanity, lies the abode of the Creator.
“This verily is the phenomenal form of the Timeless Who manifests Himself in the corporate body of the Khalsa.” (Prehlad Rai)
In the presence of ordinary men and women who live extraordinary lives as humble, truthful, loving and kind humans, Sikhs believe, we can feel the presence of the Divine.
Since Sikhism promotes only one race –the human race – there was never any emphasis on conversions. Sikh Gurus wanted people to live truthful lives without the pressures of religious conversions.
The Guru did not try to seek converts by laying down rules exclusive to Sikhism that would make salvation impossible for a non-Sikh.
Guru Nanak's message to his Muslim audience was to become better Muslims.
“Through false talk one gathereth nothing but falsehood. Thou sayest thy prayers five times and giveth them five names. But let truth be thy first prayer, honest living the second and working for the good of all, the third. Let good intentions of the mind, be the fourth prayer, and the praises of the lord, the fifth. Say thou the prayer of good deeds and thus become a true believer [Muslim].”
The Adi Granth is not a book of laws and the reason why Sirdar Kapur Singh writes that Guru Nanak would reject that portion of the Qu’ran that deals with certain laws applicable to humans. Adi Granth speaks of human evolution from an ego-centered person to a god-centered person. Every man or woman is capable of accomplishing this task with or without religious laws.
Coming to the question of Creation, all religions have given their own explanation. An attempt was made to understand how this important question has been answered for thousands of years. We would like to direct you to the following article.
Regarding your quote on the description of moon as a lamp, Guru Nanak used this phrase in what Sikhs call aarti. When Sir Rabindra Nath Tagore, the Nobel laureate in literature, was asked for his choice of an "international anthem" which would represent the universality of all nations he replied, the Aarti Shabad of Guru Nanak and went on to describe his feelings about it.
"best ever composed in the entire body of world literature which projects the entire creation, dancing and playing in tune with the wonderful glory of the Lord......Guru Nanak has beautifully portrayed the omnipresent and omnipotent powers of the Timeless Entity in this worship offering. (Excellence of Sikhism, S.S. Alag)"
A brief history of the composition of this shabad should help us understand in what context it was sung.
The temple of Jagan Nath, the Lord of the East, was one of the four major revered temples of the Hindus. The Hindus believe that Jagan Nath's idol was sculptured by the architect of the Gods and it was installed at the temple by Lord Brahma himself. It was the anniversary of installation of the idol when Guru Nanak reached the temple. The Guru's visit was not to adore the Lord but to teach people that the 'Worship of God was superior to the worship of the deity'.
It was evening and the priests brought a salver full of many lighted lamps, flowers, incense and pearls and then all stood to offer the salver to the enshrined idol-God. The ceremony was called Aarti, a song of dedication. The high-priest invited the Guru to join in the worship. Guru Nanak did not join their services, which enraged the priests. On being asked the reason the Guru explained that a wonderful serenade was being sung by Nature before the invisible altar of the Creator. The sun and the moon were the lamps, placed in the salver of the firmament and the fragrance wafted from the Malayan mountains were serving as incense.
The aarti shabad
The sun and moon, O Lord, are the lamps;
The firmament thy salver;
The orbs of the stars, the pearls enchased in it,
The perfume of the sandal is Thine incense;
The Wind is Thy fan;
All the forests are Thy flowers, O Lord of Light,
What worship is this, O Thou Destroyer of birth?
Unbeaten strains of ecstasy are the trumpets of Thy worship;
Thou hast a thousand eyes and yet not one eye;
Thou hast a thousand forms and yet not one form;
Thou hast a thousand pure feet and yet not one foot;
Thou hast a thousand organs of smell and yet not one organ
I am fascinated by this play of Thine.
The light which is in everything is Thine, O Lord of Light.
From it's brilliance everything is brilliant;
By the Guru's teaching the light becometh manifest,
What pleaseth Thee is the real Aarti.
O God, my mind is fascinated with Thy lotus feet as the
bumble-bee with the flower: night and day I thirst for them,
Give the water of Thy Grace to the sarang Nanak,
so that he may dwell in Thy name.
I enjoyed reading this article. However there.....
I enjoyed reading this article. However there are many corrections to what you say what Islam says about the creation of the universe, you are correct in acknowledging that Islam talk about the big bang where it says 'Do the unbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together and then WE split them apart and created every living thing out of water.' That bit is correct however it does not specify a sequence as to what you have listed.
Furthermore it doesn’t mean 6000 lunar years as to what you have listed that the Islamic scholar speaks about 6000 lunar years, you are correct in acknowledging the fact that the Quran speaks about a year in the sight of Allah is 50,000 years of our reckoning or 1000 years according to Angels but where you say that 'Some accounts deal with the creation more specifically stating that earth was created on a Sunday and Monday. On Tuesday He created the mountains and on Wednesday trees, water and cultivation came into existence. On Thursday God created heaven and the stars, sun, and moon and the angels were created on a Friday [The History of al-Tabari].
This is not true because if you read the Quran properly or have knowledge of Arabic you fill find out that the words used are 'yaum' meaning a day where the Quran talks about the creation of the universe it uses the word 'ayyaum', this can either mean a day or an indefinite period of time but always long, previous commentator
of the Quran used to state this that this means a very long period of time like an epoch, the Quran does not give years or dates in which the
universe was created and it does not give a sequence as to what was
created on Monday or on Tuesday etc. because the Quran uses the word
'moreover' simultaneously meaning creation was created.
Furthermore the Quran explains creation in great detail, about the big bang about the cloud of smoke which took place after the big bang after the universe expanding the spherical shape of the earth, the alternation of night and day, the sun and the moon, so I would like you to correct your misquotations which you have about what Islam says about the creation of the universe. Also you have information form a completely unreliable source listed about the days of the creation.
What does sikhism say about the creation of the universe, you have not
specified what it says about the creation of the universe.
So are you saying that Guru Nanak believed in the prophet Muhammed (pbuh), because I know at the very least he highly respected him and there is a hymn in the Adi Granth which says that ‘Truth the Prophet, Nanak if this thou do, Thy lord will be thy protector.’
Also I don’t understand the concept of Sikhsim you say that there where prophets before Guru Nanak , so what exactly is the belief of a sikh. I thought that they believed that Guru Nanak was the first prophet.
Editors
Sikhs consider Guru Nanak as a prophet but not in the same sense as Muslims consider Mohammad. For Guru Nanak all prophets (including Mohammad) were powerless in front of the Creator, which also includes Mohammad. Guru Nanak says,
There are millions of Mohammads, but only one God.
The unseen is True and without anxiety.
Many Mohammads stand in Thy court.
So numberless, they cannot be reckoned.
Prophets have been sent and come into the world.
Whenever Thy pleaseth, Thy hath them arrested, and
brought before Thee.
The slave Nanak hath ascertained,
That God alone is pure and all else is impure.
It should be evident from this quote that Sikh Gurus did not place any special reverence on any prophet and it is Creator alone that is the object of veneration. And this is the reason why Sikh Gurus never called themselves prophets or claimed any special status.
Sikhism teaches us to respect holy people from all faiths but the definition of prophet and the final revelation as attributed to Mohammad by Muslims is rejected in Sikhism. Your quote of Adi Granth is also wrong because you are forcing your interpretation of the word prophet to mean Mohammad. You are absolutely wrong in doing so. Again, we can understand the compulsions that warrant this attitude. Since, as a Muslim, you believe that prophet Mohammad is the final prophet one can understand your desire to replace the word prophet by Mohammad.
In fact, in the quote ‘Truth the Prophet, Nanak if this thou do, Thy lord will be thy protector’, Guru Nanak has emphasized the Sikh fundamental that it is truth that is the prophet and not any human being. By being truthful and honest every human person – man or woman – will be protected by the Creator. Guru Nanak wants people to have all humanly possible attributes of the Creator and justice and fearlessness are two of these attributes. One must be fearless in speaking the truth because the Creator is always protecting an honest and truthful person.
As regards you claim that the Bible foretells the coming of Mohammad, we advise you to discuss this issue with the Christian community who are better informed to indulge you in this particular discussion. For the sake of space we have omitted your quotes that you posted to justify your claim.
We have not accepted or rejected your claim about Islam’s version of the creation. Your response is your interpretation as a Muslim and we will leave it at that. If you have an issue with the information that was posted (eg. Lunar years etc.), we advise you to take it with Dr. Waghdi who is the author of Exploring The Scientific Miracle in Holy Qur'an. Mohammad Waghdi claims that Islam is a scientific religion and if you disagree with some of his conclusions you should contact him or the publisher of his book. Whether it is History of al-Tabhri or the scientific claims of the Qu’ran, if you disagree we expect you to contact the source of this information, namely The History of al-Tabari, Volume 1- General Introduction and from the Creation to the Flood (trans. Franz Rosenthal, State University of New York Press, Albany 1989) and Exploring The Scientific Miracle in Holy Qur'an by Mohammad N. Waghdi.
On the subject of creation there were many quotes in the article. Another relevant quote is
From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.
From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.
The Immaculate Lord does not become polluted. Attuned to the Shabad, honor is obtained.
Quoting Bhai Gurdas should help our understanding.
Creator is beyond Vedas and katebas (holy books of Semitic religions) and cannot be visualized.
Creator’s form is grand and awe-inspiring. Creator is beyond the reach of body organs.
Creator created this cosmos by one big bang which cannot be weighed on any scale.
Creator is indescribable and many a man in order to reach Thee has got tired by putting their consciousness into the Word.
Being beyond the ken of mind, speech, and action, the wisdom, intellect and all practices have also left hope of catching hold of Thee.
Undeceivable, beyond time and non dual, the Lord is kind to devotees and pervades through the holy congregation.
Creator is great and Thy grandeur is also great. (Var 7)
One Oankar, the primal energy, realized through the grace of divine preceptor
By one bang, the Oankar created and spread myriad of forms.
Creator extended Thy self in the form of air, water, fire, earth and sky etc.
Creator created water, land, trees, mountains and many biotic communities.
That supreme creator is indivisible and in one wink of an eye can create millions of universes.
When boundaries of His creation are unknowable, how can the expanse of that Creator be known?
No end is there of Thy extremes; they are infinite. (Var 18)
Editors-- We are posting a response from Mr. Zidani and since he had sent a lot of material cut-and-paste from other sources we are adding our comments (in maroon) embedded inside his response.
Dear sikh scholars,
I am writing to tell you about the Sikh concept of creation, while you try to ‘take the mick’ out of other religions. I would like to tell you the real aspect of what the other religions say and what according to you what Sikhism says.
The article published on SikhSpectrum.com reflects the ideas on creation as expounded by various religions. The quotes from Qur’an are provided with references.
You say that a God that orders creation into existence does
not find acceptance in Sikhism, because the creation is from ‘within’ the creator, well this is logically not true at all ,as a Muslim you might think that I am biased towards my religion , well I am a fair comparative religious scholar which you guys obviously ain’t, because what you quoted you completely say what Islam does NOT say about how the universe come into existence.
To make my point clear I am quoting Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist, has
written very persuasively on this topic. He again brings us into the
philosophical implications. Ross says that, by definition, Time is that dimension in which cause and effect phenomena take place…
”If time's beginning is concurrent with the beginning of the universe, as the space-time theorem says, then the cause of the universe must be some entity operating in a time dimension completely independent of and
pre-existent to the time dimension of the cosmos. This conclusion is
powerfully important to our understanding of who God is and who or what
God isn't. It tells us that the creator is transcendent, operating beyond the dimensional limits of the universe. It tells us that God is not the universe itself, nor is God contained within the universe.”
So this gives the idea that the Semitic religions are true because when God orders everything into existence is true, creation cannot come from within the creator, this is an idea of Hinduism, that is present in Sikhism.
The idea of creation as per Hinduism is not the same as Sikhism. Some of the differences were provided in that article. You might want to read the following articles to know the differences in more detail.
Going back to the question of Time you are suggesting that “some entity operating in time dimension is totally independent of the preexistent notion of time.” This suggests that what existed before time is DIFFERENT from our understanding of time. Obviously it is not time then, but something different, although you would prefer to still call it time, as per the astrophysicist whom you quoted.
The question of time is of immense philosophical and scientific importance. As per our current understanding what existed before time is not known. It is mere speculation. I would also recommend that you read the book by Paul Davies About Time: Einstein's Unfinished Revolution (Penguin Books). This book was also referenced in that article.
Also to further your quote about what Islam says about the creation of the universe, which you try to make it clear that Islam is against modern science, let us review your claim and really see whether what you said was true. In the Holy Quran we read:
"Haven't the unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (in one singularity), then we clove both of them asunder(21:30).” I’m sorry but what does this refer to? Is this out of step with modern science? I think not!
Nowhere in the article has it been explicitly stated that Islam is against modern science. The quotes were taken directly from the Qu’ran and other sources of information were also provided namely, Exploring The Scientific Miracle in Holy Qur'an by Mohammad N. Waghdi and Karen Armstrong’s A History of God: The 4,000 Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam (Ballantine Books). The ideas presented by Islamic scholars like al-Ashari and Abu Bakr al-Baqillani have also been presented. If you disagree with these Islamic scholars then it is a matter for your community to discuss and debate. There is not much a non-Muslim can do about it.
Further to analyze your claim that guru Nanak knew about the
big bang or that the Adi Granth is a miracle of scientific knowledge, the creation of the universe is described as follows:
Formation of the Universe-- George Gamow formally proposed the model in 1948, after a lengthy discussion on other models of
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